Hi Rick,
My name is David and I am an EMT-C in Florida. I recently got into a rather heated discussion with one of our ER MD's about the bite of a rattlesnake. Is it true that juvenile's tend to have a higher concentration of venom, or that it is stronger for some reason ? Also, what are the reasons for dry bites ? Thank You For your time,
David,
First of all, the name is NICK, not Rick! ;-)
While there is much anecdotal evidence for juvenile rattlesnakes being more aggressive and likely to bite than adults, I know of no research that actually supports the hypothesis that the venom is more potent. Klauber reports that studies of dried venom extracted from juveniles shows that the venom yield is smaller than would be expected for the body size, but also notes that the muscular heads of young snakes make it more difficult to extract the entire contents of the venom sac. No evidence is presented to suggest that the venom is more potent, although it has been suggested that young rattlers have a higher percentage of neurotoxic factors in the venom. It has also been suggested that juveniles inject all of their venom when they bite to make up for the low volume of venom they have.
Dry bites (where a fang penetrates the skin, but no venom is injected)are actually fairly common. Generally this is because the fang does not penetrate deep enough to bring the mouth of the venom tube below the skin surface. The orifice for venom injection is on the body, not the tip, of the fang so considerable penetration has to be made before venom can be introduced under the skin. Sometimes, the snake will misjudge the strike, and invect venom before the fang has been injected.
-Nick
I am looking for an intact rattle. I tried my local Natural History Museum (Santa Barbara) but it seems that the rattle they had is missing. Can you help me or provide me with helpful resources?
Thank you,
Michele,
Funny thing - the rattle I had is missing too. I think I loaned it to my tattoo artist when he was working on the design for my tattoo. .. but, that's neither here nor there. Do you just want to SEE one, or do you have to have it in your hands? I'd try contacting Bob Myers at the Albuquerque International rattlesnake museum. He's my fallback recommendation for anything rattler-related. His contact info is on my page under "notable collections of live specimens." If you just want to see one, and it's okay if it's still on a snake, the L.A. zoo probably has one or two, and I was recently at the San Diego Zoo (a bit of a field trip!) , and the rattles on their snakes are enormous!
Help needed: Advice on long term rehabilitation of a woman following rattle snake bites.
History: A healthy woman in her late 20s was rafting in the Grand Canyon (southwestern United States) in June of this year. She was bitten two times in the lateral ankle area by the same rattle snake. She was air-lifted out of the area and received 20 vials of antivenin. She did get serum sickness after that.
Current state: This patient has returned to her home in Missoula, Montana. The woman continues to have swelling, pain, and parasthesia in the leg which was bitten. She does well lying down with her feet elevated. Wearing of compression garments (socks, leggings) result in swelling above the garment. This womanıs profession is dancing, and she owns a dance studio. She is anxious to be back to work, and feels she is in good health with the exception of her leg problem.
Questions: What is going on here, and how should this be treated in physical therapy? What is the expected course of this problem? Do you know an expert in long term rehabilitation following snake bites? If so, who/where?
Vicki,
I am also not a physician, and so cannot dispense authoritative advice. Let me fabricate some things out of a little common sense, a little snakebite knowledge, and ten years as a massage therapist...
The venom renders the blood vessels unable to hold fluid - there is a great amount of damage to her leg on a very fine scale which will take some time to heal. Because of the damage, I am leery of suggesting something like effleurage ( a massage stroke designed to promote circulation), because the vessels and connective tissue may not have regenerated to the point where they can take the extra pressure. My guess is that alternate hot and cold soaks may help, but CHECK WITH A DOCTOR FIRST! Once the area has healed, massage to promote circulation. These, as I say, are all educated guesses, and not based on experience with this situation. My guess is that the leg will heal, but that it will be a slow process.
Just as an offhand thought - you might want to contact someone who works with Native American traditions - probably a Naturopath or Herbalist would be a good start.
I would be very interested in what you find out, and also would be interested in updates on the woman's condition.
we are a small hunting dog training supply store. We are trying to find a source for snake scent, used to snake proof a dog. Also useful are audio tapes of rattlesnakes. If you can help us, please call 1-800-662-5202. Thanks Sorry but we are not very computer literate, so e-mail would probably not be found.
Terry,
I can't help you there, but perhaps some of my readers can, and will contact you.
Hi Nick!
We are small producers of venom "crotalus durissus terrificus" in Brazil and would consider exporting some overseas.Could you be so kind to give us any info as what would be main markets, market prices, quality demands, etc... Thanks in advance!
Pedro and Gilvan,
Check with Jaap Brink, who is researching durissus venom at the Baylor College of Medicine.
Nick - loved your page.
We found a baby snake in the hall today and were trying to identify it. I know this is difficult without seeing it, but would appreciate any information you have.
The little guy was about 7 inches long. He was brown with light green tinge to it with darker stripes (bands). He was very aggressive. When approached, he shook his tail and struck at whatever was approaching. He had no rattles at all, but we are guessing that a baby rattler would not. It was so small that we didn't notice any pits.
We are located just North of Boulder, Colorado. This is the third snake found in the halls here, and would appreciate any advice on how to positively identify them.
Sounds like you had a brood of snakes hatch very near the house...
If it is a rattler, it will have an identifiable button on the tail, which is where the rattle segments will attach when he starts to shed. It will also have long fangs which fold up into the roof of its mouth (if you feel really really ballsy, wear thick leather clothing and gloves, put the snake somewhere like a box where it can't get you, and try to get it to strike at a dangled rag - a rattler will probably get its fangs caught, or will at least display them).
What you described could very well be a young C. Viridis, but it could also be a bullsnake, or gopher snake, which look very similar, are very aggressive, and shake their tails just like rattlesnakes (an evolved mimicry which keeps them safe from rattlesnake-wary predators). If the tail is slender and ends in a sharp point, then this is probably what you have.
Better yet - if you are not too far from Boulder, call down to CU and see if they have a herpetologist on staff this time of year who can take a look at it. While you're there, say hi to the folks at KGNU, who were wonderful to me when I came through twice on tour playing music (my former bandmate Deb Seymour, now of Seattle, was the Blues Lady on KGNU for 12 years).
Let me know what you find out!
I recently stumbled across a snake and am unsure of its species. First of all I live in Clemson SC, the snake was located about 100 yards from a lake. The color of the snake was light gray with maroon uniform splotches. Being so small the head shape didn't really give me any clues, it was slender and didn't have a pit vipers head. The snake was a baby (aprox 8 inches, pencil size in dia)just about to shed its skin (cloudy eyes), the snake was rather aggressive, I assume because of his transitional state. In his aggression he shook his tail violently as if trying to warm me but was unable to make any noise due to the absence of rattles. Making me think that he is some type of rattlesnake but am leaning towards him being an impersonator of some kind. Not that this is a life or death matter but just that I want to curb my curiosity. In reference to his head, will baby pit vipers have the distinguished head or does this happen as he grows and gets older?
Troy,
What you have described could very well be a carolina pygmy rattlesnake (sistrurus miliarius). I'd recommend going to the pygmy rattlesnake homepage at http://www.stetson.edu/~biology/pigpage.html, and looking at the pictures. Not all pygmys are as brightly colored as the ones they show, and a snake about to shed would be duller in color also.
Pygmy rattlers have tiny rattle strings, and the babies would only have a button on the tail where the rattle will grow. It is possible that there was a button and you didn't notice it. Pygmys are of the genus Sistrurus, members of which have a sleeker head than those of Crotalus so no, it would not necessarily have a "pit-vipery" head.
There are, however, imitative snakes. Here in the west we have the Gopher Snake or Bullsnake, which is similarly shaped and patterned to our native rattlesnakes, and which shake their tails vigorously. However, bullsnakes have pointy tails with no rattles, and so are readily identifiable. I don't know what snakes you have in the east that would have those characteristics. If you don't think it was a pygmy rattler, you might check your public library or bookstore for Joe Collins' "Peterson's field guide to Eastern reptiles and amphibians."
I love to walk in the desert, especially at dusk but also dawn and after dark. I prefer not to use a flashlight as it ruins the vibes. I do move slowly and stomp my feet.
Are there specialty leggings (kevlar?!) that I could wear that would be 'fully' protective in case I get unlucky or inadvertantly corner (or step on) a snake etc.?
I once read an article where they described wrapping window screen material around your legs. I'm assuming the snakes 'always' strike below the knee, unless you're near a rock ledge (which could be skirted). I take care not to reach into bushes or place my hands where I can't see.
Also, how protective are the different boot types.
I very much appreciate your help as this is a major hobby of mine and even when I'm not getting bitten (none yet), I'd greatly prefer to minimize the concern.
Thank you very much and good luck in your work!
Rob,
Well, I once did the same thing, and bought army surplus gaiters for that purpose, but found that they don't reach high enough.
As for the window screen idea - I imagine the mesh would not be tight enough to prevent fang entry. Kevlar would be overkill for sure :-). Rattlesnakes are not bullets and their penetration ability is limited.
The experts recommend good solid jeans (or if you feel kinky, leather pants, *wink*), but the key is that they be loose-fitting. Fangs that penetrated the jeans would then very likely be kept away from your skin. So, loose-fitting heavy denim jeans over any calf-high boot (ie cowboy boots) would most likely provide optimum protection. If you are determined to wear window screens over your legs, please send pictures :-). Seriously, if I were walking directly into a rattlesnake den, I would wear good solid hip waders, but short of that, baggy jeans and boots should do the trick.
Dear Nick,
I have a general question about snake bites and I thought maybe you could lead me in the right direction. I heard that snakes cannot bite when they are swimming under water. Is this true?
Emily,
I will quote Laurence Klauber directly here:
"The question of whether rattlesnakes can bite when in, or under, water is occasionally asked. The answer is that they can bite readily enough, although, lacking the anchorage of a solid base, they cannot strike efficiently."
Nick:
Unfortunately, my black lab was bitten today by a Western Rattlesnake (not a Diamondback - we live in N. California in the Sierra Mtns. above Lake Tahoe). The distance between the bite/fang marks on his cheek was 1.5 inches. Now, since I did not see the snake {all the symptoms indicate snake bite} when he was bit, is there a way that I can make an estimate of the size of the snake from the distance between the puncture wounds?
Secondly, since the distance between the puncture wounds seems large for a Western Rattlesnake, is it possible that other species of rattlers live in our area. All the adult rattlers that I have seen in our area have a greenish hue, lack distinct "diamond" blotches, have faint white rings on the tail, and seem not to exceed 20 - 24 inches in length. I have seen a young (5 - 6 inches) rattlesnake that was tan with very distinct brown blotches. Is this a typical color pattern for young Western Rattlesnakes or are we dealing with a different species? The vegetation in our area varies from coniferous forests to sagebrush.
Any help you can shed on these issues would be greatly appreciated. I'm watching my dog closely tonight and hoping for a recovery with very little tissue damage.
Dave,
I am going to have to call into question either your measurements or your diagnosis. From your description and my research I am going to guess that your dog was bitten by a cat or something very similar in size and physiology. Let me explain.
First, a cat bite is very septic. It will swell up and get infected very quickly, and can be very painful and sometimes fatal, much like a rattlesnake bite. See my notes below.
Secondly, there are studies which do correlate fang separation to body size in rattlesnakes, and unless my calculations are way off, for a rattlesnake to have a fang separation of 1.5 inches, it would have to have a body length of over 8 feet.
Here are my calculations. size correlation constants and formulas are as taken from Laurence Klauber's "Rattlesnakes, their habits, natural histories, and influence on mankind."
Whatever bit your dog, I hope that you get him to a vet ASAP. A small mammal bite, as I mentioned, can be life-threatening. Chances are that a rattlesnake bite by a snake of the size you are describing would be fatal, unless there was little or no venom injected.
One of the greatest dangers of a bite from a feral cat, skunk, or baby raccoon (my top three guesses from the fang separation you described) is rabies, which is 100% fatal to both dogs and humans.
Please write back and let me know how your dog does, and what the vet has to say.
Dave Responded:
Nick:
Thank you for your quick and informative response to my question. Your diagnosis adds credence to what I initially thought was a bobcat (or other mammal) wound based on the distance between the puncture wounds. However, if it was a cat I would expect other wounds especially from the lower canines or scratch marks. I also did not hear a fight, although my dog was probably out of hearing range a few times. Perhaps, it was a coyote, a skunk, a raccoon or maybe a young moutain lion. Coyotes and lions are common in the area; skunks are common too, although my dog was not sprayed; I have not seen any sign of raccoons.
Jake, my lab, is doing about the same as last evening when I wrote you: slightly lethargic, a lot of swelling in the cheek, lip and neck area. He's eating and drinking, though, which is a good sign. And his urine is a normal color. I did take him to the vet yesterday and the doctor treated him with antibiotics (ampicillin injection and cephalexin orally) and a steroid (dexamethasone) to reduce tissue death. Antivenom was not administered.
I am seeking information on breeding Western Dimondbacks (C. Atrox) I have a pair that are maturing and will be ready to breed next spring.
I am also looking for information on the venomoid procedure. I am not a stranger to this surgery but I'm seeking info. on other techniques. I was taught the sugery by Al C. Robbins who perfected the surgery over twenty years ago and named it the "Venomductectomey".
Also seeking info. on the Collet's snake pseudechis colletti Boulenger from Australia. I need all types of captive care information on this animal. I know this isn't a rattlesnake but Nick knows all.
Bruce,
Unfortunately, I don't know all, and all three of your questions will have to be passed on to my readers. I hope that some of them will have answers for you
I am no longer taking questions by email. Instead, try my new peer to peer discussion forum.